Customer Experience Superheroes - Series 3 Episode 3 Crisis Management in CX with expert David Wales

In this episode of Christopher Brooks' Customer Experience Superheroes we meet the superhero David Wales. David spent many years working as a firefighter and training officer, before being appointed as the first customer experience manager in the fire service. 

Now running his own consultancy practice Shared Aim, David shares his ideals and experiences on the importance of enabling all to review outcomes and situations from the customer's perspective. 

David explains how important it is to ensure all voices are heard and not just the customers, if you want to have integrated and collaborative engagement.

Referencing the incredible studies he has completed in the fire service of the human impact of a crisis, David's brings to life the parallels with business to help us understand how you can ensure the customer is central to the discussion, even in the most hostile of environments.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Hello and welcome to Clientship's Customer Experience Superheroes Podcasts. We believe in the world of customer experience today, you need a whole host of superpowers in order to be able to make a real difference with customer experience. We introduce you to some specialists, we share some tools and techniques, as well as highlighting some of the best brands for customer experience. In this episode, we're going to meet David Wells. David brings a very unique perspective to customer experience, having been the first specialist in customer experience in the Fire Brigade. David shares with us in this podcast the parallels between the emergency services and corporate world when it comes to delivering world-class customer experience and has some incredible insights into the world of crisis management and how customer experience plays a role. Okay, I am delighted to be catching up with uh David Wales from Shared Aim. Uh David and I have known each other for a while, but um well, welcome first of all, David.

unknown 1:19

Thank you, Chris, so it's a pleasure to be with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Great. And um if you wouldn't mind, just for some of our listeners who may not be aware of some of the great work you're doing, could you just give us a kind of a bit of a plotted history of your your road to customer experience?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Of course.

unknown 1:34

Um I'll give you the brief version. I became interested in customer experience via probably an unusual route, in that I had a career in the fire service, and probably about 12 years ago, we started asking the question of why people didn't behave as we expected them to or we advised them to. And so it was really a piece of work to understand how we could get the public to change to meet our expectation of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

So a very inside-out view of the world. And the study went on to actually become a national piece of work over a number of years, and increasingly what we found is that the public made a lot of sense, their behaviors made a lot of sense.

unknown 2:12

We just hadn't understood them on their terms. We'd understood them as a fire service who has a role to play, but not appreciated how different the experience is for the members of the public. Um, so over time it just really dawned on me, and some of the most powerful evidence we had were the stories that people told me.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

And so at that point, I thought I'd just fine.

unknown 2:31

I've been a firefighter, fire observer, fire investigator. Um, and by that third or fourth interview, it just completely flipped around for me. And I became fascinated by that more customer-centred view. And over time, um, we developed that thinking and went back to the board to say actually the issue here is more for us than the public.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

That led to me becoming the first customer experience manager within the fire service to introduce that model and took me across the UK and internationally as far as New Zealand to share that thinking.

unknown 3:01

I left the fire services about a year ago, and since then I've set up Shared Aim where I do some projects that are close to my heart that are pro bono and then some commercial work to help organizations improve, including sort of elements of customer experience.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

See, this was truly groundbreaking. I mean, you just said there the first customer experience officer in the fire station. I mean, I guess you know most sectors wouldn't be able to trace back who the first was, but it was the you were the first person to hold that title.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

I was the human behaviour research. We developed six insights. Um, four were around, if you like, the operational side where you could improve so the call and the operational attendance of post-fire. And then there were two that were more conceptual, one about understanding risk and how the different in views on that had an impact. But the last one was really that relationship with the public, that as an institution of the body being well established, how we well we understood with and on gauge with the public.

unknown 4:02

And so from that insight, try and reverse some of the thinking so that we could do the job that the fire service needs to do, it's a legitimate role, but also do it on the in a way that the public would benefit. And I think some of those things transfer across over personalization. Not all fires have the same impact or mean the same thing. As an example of that, one of the very first things we we heard, we did 10 interviews with people who had minor injuries, minor fires. Based on those people had pets, and seven of them, seven of them described how the influence of their pets, their conserved their well-being, either meant they didn't leave the property immediately or they had left it and they went back in. We never picked that up in all the analysis because we had never thought of it, so we didn't collect the data. And yet I just sat there and I thought it's probably the most obvious statement in the world. People are mad about their pets and will do all sorts of things for them.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

And if you understand those behavioural drivers, you can't really engage with customers on a meaningful term. So there's no point us shouting at somebody to get out when their priority is the pet. And for some people that pet is no different to an extra person in the family.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Well, I mean that's I mean that's just so insightful. I remember working with an insurance company who um we deal with people when they'd possibly had a fire in their house, but other kind of severe claims. And you know, they'd start the conversation with um, right, okay, just to let you know, where are you now? Let's try and get you to a hotel, um, I think we can get a taxi around to you. And they'd get really low satisfaction scores on the back of it. They didn't quite understand because they'd fulfilled the you know the requirements. But when they started to listen to the secondary conversations, it's exactly to your point that they'd missed the things that were most important. And when they then started to rephrase that question, which was which became what can we do for you first, it never was get me a hotel. It's always things like, Could you get us an iPad? Because we're due to talk to the grandchildren tomorrow night, and they'll worry if we don't get hold of them. So, to your point, you know, the the the logical thing would be about you know getting people out at all costs, but when you start to see see the human side of it, you actually start to see a completely different set of behaviours that you take on board in order to get the outcome that everyone wants to achieve.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Absolutely, and one of the most powerful stories I used, and it I could use it at any level, we interviewed a lady who told us about her son who'd been at home. There was some utilities works in the road outside, and it caught the electrical meter alight outside the front door. The fire never came into the property, but some smoke products came around the door, and the son was on his own at the time, and so his understanding concerned. I interviewed the lady about nine months later, and she was saying that um she said he was really concerned that the fire could happen again, that he did the wrong thing. And uh she said it'd be really useful if you could send someone around just to talk to him.

unknown 6:51

I said, I've got arranged that. She said, Well, it's too late now.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

And so you had this really powerful moment where she told us what she needed, and when we looked back at it, we thought, if we'd actually taken advice and heard her at the time, we could have done that. The son now was 12. He didn't want to come out with mum all the time because it's that age where he's starting to be a bit more aware of that side and wanting to be independent, but he didn't want to stay at home because of his fear of the fire.

unknown 7:14

And so every day this little situation was playing out, and for us it was an absolutely minor fire, we wouldn't have thought about it twice. He probably will live with that fear for years, if not life, the smells, the sounds uh and sights of smoke and fire. Had we done what was suggested, we could have gone down, reassured him, said that's you did absolutely the right thing. That fire was incredibly unusual, it's not going to happen again. And you did a great job. But you're one of our ambassadors, go and tell you some school friends. So you've actually gone to school feeling good about himself, spreading that message across. And the real thing that struck us is we had appliances in the area the next day giving out leaflets to other people to help them prevent that fire. So it wasn't a resource issue, it was purely about we did not take the time to listen. Our customer told us what she wanted.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Unfortunately for me, it was nine months and it was too late. It wasn't costly, but we could have gone exactly as you said, from a somebody that unknown to us was saying the fire goes were great, but to somebody who genuinely recognised we'd understood what they needed.

unknown 8:14

So it's those simple little things, but this the insights you can draw out how they affect thinking and practice.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

The parallels, um David, with with commerce are just incredible because that that moment gets played out for many organisations with the the customer who, after the purchase, is not happy with it but doesn't actually complain until there is an opportunity for them to complain, and by that time it's too late to actually rectify it. And I guess you know, if you're talking about buying a pair of jeans or uh, you know, uh a meal you might have consumed, it's one thing. But when you're talking about impacting an individual's life, um, because your your customer journey, I guess, stopped with the fire, didn't it? The fire was put out, that's the end of the journey. When you look at it from a process perspective, but when you look at it from the the customer's perspective, if that's the right term to use, then that was actually just the start of the journey for them. Before that, everything was good. The fire happened, and that's the start of the journey. So it's incredible, isn't it, how organizations can look at things from very different perspectives.

unknown 9:17

It is, and and I I've seen this in a number of professions that we joined, and and if you asked me 15 years ago why I joined the fire service, I would give you I want to help the community.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

So I said, Oh that's true to an extent, but the reality is I joined because the job appealed, the pay was good, the time the shift system fits me. I joined it for personal reasons. And over time you develop professional competence, you you go to the exam route, you do all things, but they're all internally focused, and there's a natural assumption that the better I get technically at this, the better I am at delivering service to my customers.

unknown 9:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

But in proof, if you haven't got those close links into your customer base, if you're not listening to their language, the tone of the content, you're actually pulling yourself away. And I I think that's what we really found over time. We were becoming very much better technically at being a fire service on our terms. And I see that in a lot of professions, as I say, there's that inward focus, and but let's teach you a really understanding, customer. It's such a key one, particularly for something like the fire service, because people are always pleased to see us. Even where, as Elaine said, you know, you were really good, but if we do the C SAS score, they love us because we help them in a moment of real distress. But it actually, the board liked that level of 95 to 100% satisfaction, but it doesn't give you any meaningful information on which you can improve. And over time you will go, you know, that that distance between you and adjustment will build, and that's certainly what we found. I I worked with some incredible people over the years and I've got the great utmost respect for them. But when we looked at it, being better at what you do as a profession doesn't actually say connect you with the public, and it has to be, I think, as a considered model. And what we looked at, so for example, when we looked at the burn survivor journey, at the point where they were removed from the building to a place of relative safety, we still had them on site with water and crews able to provide first aid, but our priority was to give them to the ambulance service. And the ambulance service doesn't have water on the ambulances, and when they got to the hospitals, because it's not immediately life-threatening in most cases, they were triarged wait before they got referral. So actually, when we looked at the user journey, every agency, very professional, very focused on the casualty, but as a whole, we missed the opportunity at the scene to provide the best outcome for them by providing that 20 minutes of water cooling before they left and then began that journey through. And I think it's really become apparent for the organizations, the journey that typically people look at will be their journey within their company or organization's experience. And actually, for most customers, that experience is part of something much broader. I remember talking to From the Commonwealth Office a few years ago and they said about when Mount Etna blew, and they had tens of thousands of people abroad, and they did an incredible effort to get everyone repatriated, a scale they'd never undertaken before, and they were really, really pleased with all what they'd achieved. But then they started getting complaints coming because actually for the people that have been repatriated, the Foreign Office job was to get them back to the UK. But for all those people sitting at Dover, they need to get to Manchester and Tyne and Weir, they still hadn't got home. And so for us, probably in business as well, it's better at connecting the entire journey, understanding the show, going beyond those organizational parameters to deliver what the customer needs right the way through end-to-end. And that's quite challenging to talk to competitors, maybe, or people further down line and build those relationships, it will make sure we can deliver exactly what people need throughout that experience.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

You know, it's a fabulous analogy for kind of silo working, isn't it, versus integrated working and kind of recognizing that the contribution you make is just part of the contribution. And sometimes, you know, your point about competitors there. I mean, Zappos famously, if you found up Zappos American uh shoe company, and they don't have the shoe you want, they'll find a competitor that doesn't put you through to them because that's what you called up for a pair of shoes, not to find out if Zappos had them in stock or not, you know. So so I think you know that the parallels are incredible. So clearly there's a lot of learning there, and you know, did a fabulous job as a firefighter, and now you've you've stepped out of the fire brigade, you have an organisation called Shared Aim, uh, which is a very exciting title, if you don't mind me saying. I I think I know what it's about. Um, but uh and you've spent quite some time jamming up. I mean, uncomfortably in customer experience, it's it's a relatively short trip to go from not being certified to certified. I'd imagine in the fire brigade, it's continuous learning and many years of focus. But but you've decided since leaving, over a course of about a year, you you've done quite a bit of academic work and getting yourself up to speed. Would that be fair?

SPEAKER_01 14:05

Yes, I I've had a long interest in evidence and decision making, and over the last year I completed masters, um, which was in crisis, risk crisis, and disaster management, and again it was fascinating.

unknown 14:17

Also, as you say, understanding that continue to learn around human behaviour and and advise around what that means, um, both within emergency services, disaster settings, and more on a commercial basis.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

But I'm I'm keen that we work from evidence-based, and sometimes that'd be academic, sometimes it'd be more insight-based. But in the rounds, there's a huge drive towards data, and I think there's there's a lot of good reasons for that. But whilst that Peter mentioned earlier about the pets, and we hadn't picked that up through analysis and data, because we weren't asking the right questions. And I think there are numerous examples that if you you don't have those conversations where you ask why and and really gain different perspectives, then you'll miss something quite crucial. And so I chose the name Shared Aim because I want the sense that no view is wrong on the basis that that creates a respectful conversation to say, as a fire service, we have a role to do, to extinguish fires, to help people get out of vehicles.

unknown 15:12

That's not wrong. That's a legal and traditional role that is needed.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

But the customer experience, uh, suppliers' experience, all of those are valid views as well. And the more we can find where the commonality is, the better chance we've got of exploring the differences and making sense of those. With customer experience, a lot of that starts with some difficult conversations about the views that aren't represented, the information you haven't got.

unknown 15:37

And I wanted to make sure that it was underpinned soundly by an evidential base and the right skills.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

And I think for me, customer experience is part of a broader mix of ways that we can improve organizations. I'm very sold on the power of multiple perspectives and multidisciplinary approaches, and then finding what's right for each organization. It's it can be quite dangerous just to pick up a template and apply it unthinkingly elsewhere. Let's just say, yes, so I wanted to spend a bit of time really understanding both what I could contribute to sector uh but also sort of make sure I've got a good knowledge to underpin that.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

And I think that balance you is exactly right. I I I've you know too many scars from um going into organisations where clearly someone is has gone in there almost running customer experience like a rugby ball through the organization, exclaiming how everyone has got it wrong so far and our customer experience would be the new messiah, as opposed to sort of recognising that you know around the trading table, you've got you've got to get your position there, you've got to help the business understand the incremental value that being customer-centric can bring. Um and and if you know you feel that at the top level the purpose of the organisation needs to be realigned, well you you've got to earn your spurs there. I mean, um have you have you thought about that in terms of the role you you were playing at the the fire brigade, and I'd imagine it's gonna be a continued role, is kind of trying to open some of those doors that for other sectors are already you know very open and people are are are flourishing. Is that a a role that you you're okay with?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Yeah, so I I've always preferred the front-end innovation though as workshops than difficult discussions. I think I just find that fascinating and facilitating those is something that I think really helps gain insights. You're right. I mean, I I think the customer experience I found I learned a lot about human behaviour doing the human behaviour research of our customer base. I learned as much trying to take that back through organizations, and um it's something I've seen elsewhere where I've had experience is actually if you're not careful, going and using branding around your customer experience too heavily can create a barrier because what it's a means to an end. And what we're trying to do is help businesses stay relevant, um, have the right skills, have the right view of the world in order to make a useful contribution for all their stakeholders, whether it's customers, shareholders, employees, they all have a stake and a legislative interest. I think if we don't recognise that, and at a human level as well, not just the financial benefits and corporate, then we miss something.

unknown 18:10

And so I'm very happy to play that role. And I do find that actually it's best to have conversations about what the business is is trying to achieve or what it could achieve, and then just talk about customer experience afterwards.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Um and I I make mistakes, I mean, I have to admit that I became quite evangelical about customer experience, but then it's something new, and and everyone that's been in business and companies for a while has seen the latest fact come and go. And so there's a bit of weariness, there's a bit of scepticism, and as you say, there's people established around the table wondering what's this going to make because we've operated alright for the next period of time. And so I think I I've learned a lot actually about how to bring that in, and it's the same with a lot of change management, customer experience. The conversation that should be started is where you're trying to get to, and then select the right tool for it and apply that in an intelligent way. I I think, not surprising given my background, that the bit I'm really interested in is the conversations around how we do that at a human level and a humane level. Processes and systems often are there, but we we often don't take the time to understand how human factors and needs, and again legitimate needs, will affect that.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

And I think the um recent pandemic has is really brought that to light for a lot of consumers because there has been times where there's been no transactions, there's been no reason to use a product or to to purchase a uh a product, and and therefore you know organizations have been at a bit of a crossroads because what they've realized, I think, is that much of their customer experience has actually just been slapped on to generate transactions, it's been about you know getting more business um and using customer experience as a bit of a leverage to do that. But if you take away that business, customer experience is actually still valid, it can still make people feel more confident about themselves, about those relationships, and it needs to be able to work when there isn't um a transaction and transaction happening. I guess in the background that you've had coming into the world of commerce, there's really been a transaction involved. It's actually been about that human uh that humanity about making people feel better, feel safe, feel secure. So actually, you know, your perspective, I would say, at the moment, is possibly more valuable than those who are used to dealing with transactions and interactions and service contracts. I mean, do you sense that? Do you sense that organizations at the moment have you know are are kind of starting to realise that their purpose is broader than just their customers' employees? So it's about communities and society.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

Absolutely, and there have been some great examples uh around how organizations have adapted, and I think as you say, that one of the things it highlights for me is really around what do we understand customer experience to be. And there is a legitimate way to frame it where it's about business and how does it retain customers, how does it engage them. But increasingly, as we go forward, as you say, it's understanding how do we do business, because that is as much of an important picture for many customers, and one that's readily shared with social media, stories of companies getting it wrong and then not apologizing or not responding in the right way really quickly translate to poor business, and the reverse is true as well.

unknown 21:31

Well, you've got a company that understands it, it is it's not separate from its community, it's part of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Customer experience for me is also that social movement of understanding. Customer experience should be involved in thinking about what Black Lives Matter movement means, it should be thinking about the environmental issues, it is a social purpose as well as a business agenda.

unknown 21:49

I think probably as a mature industry, there are some conversations that would be fascinating to have to say how do we position that? How do we make sure that we can convey that to people?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Is that it is the right thing to do. It's the right thing to do at a medical level, but actually if you act in the right way, I think the business will follow people to thought aligning their own values and say this is the sort of people I would want to work with or deal with. I I've recently made offered something because they wouldn't let me check out together. It's a one of them I would never use that supply again.

unknown 22:28

Just little things like that. It's not worth my time.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

And I think if it's like it's just understanding some of the human factors around transactions, it's understanding human factors around how people feel about broad communities. That's like a thinking time. And what the pandemic's about, I think, for some companies is actually a little bit of breakaway to really understand their place in the community. And some companies use that well as some more focus on just as you say the transactional level.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

One of the things we've been able to kind of reflect upon is you know, we don't have a good barometer for it, but we're able to put companies into they're a good one or you know that they're a bad one. And and I've seen some positive movements, just silly things like you know, the Royal Mail rebranding their post boxes blue, you know. I mean they're Royal Mail red. You know, you can imagine 30 years ago the brand, you know, director saying, How dare you? But you know, they've made them blue to just say, Well done, is our way of saying thank you. And even to the point I saw Amazon in in Atlanta, they've uh their new offices, half of it is going to be given over to house um people who are living on the streets. They're gonna set up 50 hours 50 homes in there and they're gonna take it to make it a thousand homes. And and that kind of sense of then when you walk into work and kind of go, that's what my company does, it makes you feel more proud about the organization that that that you're associated with. If you are focusing just on the transaction, to consider diversity, inclusion, well-being as part of your organization's purpose, it becomes a very tenuous and almost a marketed consideration rather than it being authentic. Whereas if your focus is on, you know, we put the customer's world at the heart of what we do, you have to embrace all of that. And and I think you know, the humane side of things that you've been talking about from the fire service is uh is a recognition of the the quality of life that you can bring when actually you are much more inclusive. So, where we are now then, David, I mean, it sounds as if the you know your your hot property, as it were, that's probably not a very good expression, is it? You know, you're you're actually in quite a unique position because you can look at organizations from a very objective, independent perspective with good credentials, critique just how they are truly delivering customer centricity. And and I imagine even in very developed organisations, very advanced organizations, you know, the insurance sector and stuff, that would be as valuable as probably local governments or charities or other sorts of spaces. But what is the plan now? I mean, where where are you you're finding opportunities to make a difference?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

There's a lot that I can transfer out from merchant service career, and I think, particularly at the moment, dealing with uncertainty and risk, where people try to oversimplify uh uh it can lead to problems. I think if you get comfortable with uncertainty and that risk is prevalent and an everyday part of life, you can actually start to differentiate.

unknown 25:23

Um and I've I've had a mix, which is what I've talked about to do with some commercial work.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Um I've also beentimatising for uh public government departments or commercial work, and there's also a project I'm doing which I'm initiating to try and look at um how we prove the logical and use some of the customer experience mentality and some of the technologies available to improve experience. Um I'm also continuing to do a little bit of research uh and writing around that. So I very much hope to be able to have a portfolio, and so far that's that's proven to be the case.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Excellent. That's great news. And um, if people want to get hold of you, David, because I mean I can imagine you'd be a great, great speaker, but also a great almost like uh an audit for people, you know, a sense check to kind of consider are we just paying lip service to this or are we actually genuinely thinking about it from the customer's perspective? How can they get hold of you? LinkedIn, is that a good way?

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yes, I'm on LinkedIn, those Wails at LinkedIn or David at Shared Aim. Uh they should be able to find me quite readily on there.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

And Shared Aim is a website?

SPEAKER_01 26:31

The company website is uh say shared aim.co.uk, but there is an email address with that which is david at sharedaim.co.uk.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Awesome. Well uh I mean it's it's I never failed to be impressed with the progress that you make, David, and the easy comparison between the world of the fire brigade and business and customer experience is just it's just incredible just how alike they are, um despite being very, very different um areas that they focus in on. So so thank you so much for sharing it with with the listeners. I'm sure there'll be some really inspirational takeouts from it, and um, and hopefully, you know, people will reach out to you uh because I think you've got so much to offer the industry that and and you're you're part of the next generation of customer experience, I think the kind of the more mature. I love that expression, I've got to use that as your quote kind of when you oversimplify it can lead to problems. And it's a complex business because we're dealing with humans, so therefore, to boil it down to one measure or to you know crunch it down to uh a certification that takes you know uh as long as it takes to watch Ben Hear to complete, it's it's just it's just insulting, isn't it, really? I mean, it is a very complex world in which customer experience needs to exist. And I think the way that you've approached it to try and explain and understand it, inarguably, you know, one of the most hostile of organisations I can imagine for that sort of thing is is testament to uh your passion for it. So thank you for sharing your story. Well, thank you very much for the opportunity, Christopher, and it's great, great to catch up again. Thank you, David.